Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:31:58 -0400 Reply-To: Japanese Sword Art Mailing List <IAIDO-L@LISTSERV.UOGUELPH.CA> Sender: Japanese Sword Art Mailing List <IAIDO-L@LISTSERV.UOGUELPH.CA> From: "Raymond A. Sosnowski" <110742.522@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Kashima Shinto Ryu and Kashima Shinryu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Peter Kim <elmann@WELL.COM> wrote with respect to Kashima Shinto Ryu and Kashima Shinryu: >What is the relationship between these two ryu? I have alternately seen >evidence that they are very similar or even identical --- references to >both being early influences on aikido --- as well as that they are >completely distinct. In particular, what, if any, are the >sword-pertinent differences? This question came up in a query in Aikido Journal's (#110) LETTERS TO THE EDITOR from Mr. Joe Mendez, "Anyone heard of Dr. [Karl] Friday?" in 1997. My response was not printed in full in AJ; below is an excerpt of that reply sent to Mr. Mendez with a comment by Prof. Friday on my reply to AJ: >On Sun, 2 Mar 1997, I replied to AJ and CC'd Karl Friday <snip> >>As for the differences between Kashima Shinto-Ryu and Kashima Shinryu (this >>is the preferred spelling of the Kashima Shinryu Federation of North >>America, or KSR/NA, of which Prof. Friday is cofounder and VP at present), I >>have not seen anything definitive, just bits and pieces. I have seen in >>"Kim's Big Book of Iaido," Volume 4 of the Seidokai Iaido manuals, >>privately published by Mr. Kimberly A. C. C. Taylor, Godan Iaido and >>Shodan Aikido, of the University of Guelph, that both Ryuha were founded >>at about the same time, the former in 1527 by Bokuden Tsukahara (1490-1571) >>and the latter by Matsumoto Masanobu (1468-1524), and both are derived >>from Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. Bokuden studied TSKSR with his >>father (a Kashima priest), father-in-law (not named) and/or brother, and >>possibly Kage-Ryu later with Hidetsuna Kamiizumi; Matsumoto studied with >>the founder of TSKSR, Iizasa Choiisai Ienao (1386/7 - 1487/8/9). >>Information from Prof. Friday gives two names for the creation of Kashima >>Shinryu: Kunii Genpachirou Kagetsugu, and Matsumoto Bizen no Kami Ki no >>Masamoto (Matsumoto Masanobu above). >> >>From Mr. Meik Skoss' [AJ] article on the former and notes from Prof. Friday on >>the curriculum of the latter, both Ryuha are composite arts, containing >>Kenjutsu, Sojutsu, Naginatajutsu, and Battojutsu/Iaijutsu. Also the >>latter has a Jujutsu component which is not unlike Aikido; I don't know >>about the former. Finally, the basis of latter is the Kesa-giri; it is >>quite evident in the Sojutsu, Naginatajutsu and Jujutsu practices, as well >>as in the Kenjutsu. I don't know if the former has such a central point >>of focus. > >>There is a demonstration of the former, Kashima Shinto-Ryu, on the Aiki >>News videotape of the "3rd Friendship Demonstration" (1988); it is >>definitely different from those parts of the latter, Kashima Shinryu, that >>I have seen demonstrated, but I don't know enough about the particulars of >>either to be able to describe those differences in meaningful terms. It >>is interesting to note that the Reishiki before and after the Omote-no- >>Tachi is basically the same for both Kashima Shinto-Ryu as demonstrated on >>the tape, and Katori Shinto Ryu as shown in the three volume set, "The >>Deity and the Sword," by Mr. Risuke Otake. (The Reishiki for the Kihon >>Tachi of Kashima Shinryu is more like that for Kendo-no-Kata in that both >>sink into Sonkyo with Bokuto/Bokken drawn; in Kashima Shinryu, both people >>then place the Bokuto on the ground with the right hand while squatting, >>and bow without releasing the right hand grips). There is also a strong >>resemblance between the Waza in the Kata in the Omote-no-Tachi of Katori >>Shinto-Ryu and in the Omote-no-Tachi of Kashima Shinto-Ryu. By the way, >>both use the same kind of Bokuto -- thick and straight with no Tsuba. On >>the other hand, Kashima Shinryu uses this same type of Bokuto, thick and >>straight, except that it also has a thick wooden Tsuba. >> >>I have also studied Aiki-ken, which, according to Mr. Stan Pranin in "The >>Aiki News Encyclopedia of Aikido," is derived from and closely resembles >>Kashima Shinto-Ryu in part; during the "3rd Friendship Demonstration," the >>64th headmaster of Kashima Shinto-Ryu, the late Mr. Koichiro Yoshikawa, >>said that he believed the Ueshiba O-sensei studied only the Omote-no-Tachi, >>the first of three major groups of Kenjutsu Kata, of Kashima Shinto-Ryu. >>My experience has been that the Suburi and Kumitachi of Aiki-ken are very >>different from the Kihon Waza of Kashima Shinryu. And I must agree with >>Inaba-sensei [8th dan, Aikikai] that Kashima Shin-Ryu Kenjutsu is >>definitely the sword art more closely aligned with the principles of >>Aikido; this has certainly been my personal experience, having studied >>both Aiki-ken and Kashima Shin-Ryu/Shinryu Kenjutsu. > >On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Karl Friday responded > >>Good to hear from you--and thanks for the kind words in reply to the Aikido >>News letter. As you noted there, the relationship between Kashima-Shinryu >>and Kashima Shinto-ryu is distant--going back to the first generation and >>splitting off thereafter--and murky at best. It's very difficult to >>determine what relationship held between Matsumoto Bizen-no-kami Masanobu, >>Tsukuhara Bokuden and Kamiizumi Ise-no-kami Hidetsugu; various texts and >>ryuha traditions claim various things about who taught who. About the only >>thing that is clear is that the three probably all had some direct or >>indirect influence on one another. Probably the simplest way to summarize >>the differences between KSR and KSTR is that the latter is very closely >>related to the Katori Shinto-ryu tradition and lineage (historically, >>geographically--both being carried out in the same region--and--as you >>noted--in terms of technique) while the former is essentially a member of >>the Shinkage-ryu family of ryuha. > >So there you have it; nothing fancy, just your typical historical muddle. >Thanks for asking the question -- I needed to answer that one for myself too >and this was just the motivation I needed to get some answers. I have written about my experiences with "Inaba-ha Aiki-Ken-do (Kashima- Shinryu Kenjutsu derivative)" [my terminology] and Aikido in the Journal of Japanese Sword Arts #85 entitled "`Inaba-ha' Kashima Shin-Ryu Kenjutsu and Aikido - A Study of Internal Principles" [Vol. 9, No. 10, pp. 9-17, Oct 1997], and available from <ftp://foxsun.nscl.msu.edu/pub/iaido/TIN85>. =========================================================================== Raymond Sosnowski NEW: 110742.522@compuserve.com OLD: sosnowsk@cns-alumni.bu.edu Northeast Naginata Dokokai [at] Northeast Aikikai, Chelmsford, MA; Doshikai Kendo & Iaido Dojo, Acton, MA; Seidokai, U. of Guelph, Ontario; Ryuko Kyudojo, Boulder, CO; [Nashua (NH) YWCA Aikido Club in-exile]. member of AAA, JAA(USA), AUSKF, CKF, ECNF/USNF, USFA(NC), Japan Society of Boston, Guang Ping Yang Tai Chi Assoc., Hwayue Internal Arts Assoc. =========================================================================== Back to: Top of message | Previous page | Main IAIDO-L page